Questions on D-Star for the little guy.

[KC9MUK]

Hi.  I have some questions about this D-STAR system.  The closest repeater to me is too far for me to be able to hit with my HT.  My only experience with internet linked radio systems is with IRLP and Echolink.  With the Echolink system I can set my radio up to go through the internet, without having to go through a repeater in the process.  They refer to it as a "home station."  Can I do the same thing with this D-STAR system, or do I have to go through a repeater gateway?  In other words, can I access the system via an internet connection here in my home through my D-STAR equipped V-82?  If not, I can't see spending the $200 for the UT-118, seeing as how there aren't any D-STAR repeaters close to my QTH.  Please forgive my ignorance on how this all works.  LOL!

[n5ebw]

Hi There!

First, welcome!

If you are unable to hit a repeater with RF, then your only option is to use the DV Dongle, which uses the internet to talk through the D-Star system.  Coincidentally, it's right around the same price as the UT-118 

It works a little different on the D-Star RF side of things because it does all of the encoding and decoding of the audio right before the RF component, which means, there really isn't a good way to splice into it to harness just the audio.  You can, however, roll your own audo from the UT-118 itself.  Mr. Satoshi Yasuda (7M3TJZ/AD6GZ ), has a lot of the info on the UT-118 mapped out at: http://d-star.dyndns.org/rig.html.en.  He even has information on how to roll your own.  If you don't have access to an RF component for D-Star, you are pretty much left with using the DV Dongle, or rolling one of your own.

[KC9MUK]

Hi There!

First, welcome!

If you are unable to hit a repeater with RF, then your only option is to use the DV Dongle, which uses the internet to talk through the D-Star system.  Coincidentally, it's right around the same price as the UT-118 

It works a little different on the D-Star RF side of things because it does all of the encoding and decoding of the audio right before the RF component, which means, there really isn't a good way to splice into it to harness just the audio.  You can, however, roll your own audo from the UT-118 itself.  Satoshi Yasuda (7M3TJZ/AD6GZ ), has a lot of the info on the UT-118 mapped out at: http://d-star.dyndns.org/rig.html.en.  He even has information on how to roll your own.  If you don't have access to an RF component for D-Star, you are pretty much left with using the DV Dongle, or rolling one of your own.

Roll my own?  Man!  What kinda forum is this anyway?!?!?!?!?!   


Thanks for the info.  It would appear that this DV Dongle is my only option at this point.  I went to their site and checked it out.  It turns out they have a chip in it that's designed to receive the signal my V-82 will put out in D-STAR mode.  My guess is that it works along the same lines as Bluetooth.  To use it that way, I'd have to buy the Dongle and the UT-118.  YIKES!!  I might start out with just the Dongle for now though.

I pretty much got into an argument tonight with a radio friend of mine over this D-STAR thing.  He kept going on and on about how no one is ever going to be willing to spend the kind of money it takes to put that sort of repeater system up in this area.  My point was that this digital technology is new, the network is still in the process of being built, but there's no doubt in my mind that digital amateur radio is the next big change headed our way.  Everything is going to digital signal processing.  Look at what's going on with TV broadcasts.  It's foolish for anyone to think ham radio will not eventually follow suit.  The day may come when the FCC itself mandates a switch to digital signals for the amateur bands.  Right now the network isn't very extensive, but it's growing.  I am excited about the possibilities with this D-STAR technology.  I am not afraid of change, unlike my radio friend. 

[N5MIJ]

You're on target with the situation around D-STAR, but not with the Dongle.

The Dongle doesn't pair with your radio at all.  It's a PC accessory that allows your PC to become a user node on the network.  The Dongle effectively replaces your radio. 

Welcome to the FUN!

73,
Jim
N5MIJ

[KC9MUK]

You're on target with the situation around D-STAR, but not with the Dongle.

The Dongle doesn't pair with your radio at all.  It's a PC accessory that allows your PC to become a user node on the network.  The Dongle effectively replaces your radio. 

Welcome to the FUN!

73,
Jim
N5MIJ

Oh, bummer!  I was hoping to be able to use my radio with it eventually.  Rats!  Someone needs to put up a D-STAR repeater around here.  I heard about a club getting some sort of government grant to put one of these D-STAR repeaters up, but I have no idea how to go about something like that.  I will have to talk with some club members to see if they know anything about that. 

[n5ebw]

Make your local Emergency Management official your best friend, too

[KC9MUK]

Got another D-STAR related question.  My friend and I would like to know if the D-STAR repeaters only work digital, or will they work analog (but with limited functions) as well?  I thought I read somewhere that the repeaters will work both ways, but I am not sure.  My guess is that they are probably digital only.

[n5ebw]

They only work in digital mode.

[K9AOS]

You're on target with the situation around D-STAR, but not with the Dongle.

The Dongle doesn't pair with your radio at all.  It's a PC accessory that allows your PC to become a user node on the network.  The Dongle effectively replaces your radio. 

Welcome to the FUN!

73,
Jim
N5MIJ

Oh, bummer!  I was hoping to be able to use my radio with it eventually.  Rats!  Someone needs to put up a D-STAR repeater around here.  I heard about a club getting some sort of government grant to put one of these D-STAR repeaters up, but I have no idea how to go about something like that.  I will have to talk with some club members to see if they know anything about that. 

You might want to consider putting up your own repeater. I looks like there is plenty of information and people willing to help out. Thanks for such a great forum to get a start on this exciting mode.

[KB9KHM]

If you are unable to hit a repeater with RF, then your only option is to use the DV Dongle

This is wrong, the DV Dongle is not your only choice.  The ability exists to do EXACTLY what KC9MUK wants to do!

Mr. Satoshi Yasuda (7M3TJZ/AD6GZ ), has a lot of the info on the UT-118 mapped out at: http://d-star.dyndns.org/rig.html.en.  He even has information on how to roll your own. 

It's funny that you mention Satoshi and fail to mention the node adapter project. 

KC9MUK ... check this out, it's exactly what you are looking for:
http://w9arp.com/hotspot/

The project is still beta at this point, however their are lots of active D-Star Hot Spots out there all around the world!  Here's a video of a ham from Poland using a Hot Spot and listening to a QSO between the US and UK.  At about 5 and a half minutes into the video  you will be able to see the equipment/setup he is using:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo-aTlaHO0I

Currently Satoshi is out of node adapter circuit boards and has not yet started a manufacturing run for another batch.  You can always breadboard the circuit, it's not that difficult.  If you are seriously interested, be sure to join the gmsk_dv_node Yahoo group and spend a lot of time reading to understand what you are getting into and the issues that other users have run into.

Mark (KB9KHM)

[n5ebw]

Uh.... Could it have been that the node adapter project was somewhat unknown when that comment was made??  After all, news travels somewhat slow in this community because everyone stays in their own circles for some reason.  Please use less of a derogatory tone when you post in this forum, especially for the first time.  We're all in favor of you helping out around here with new information, but please refrain from responding in particular using words like "wrong" and "fail" (Some might take offense, not myself, though, my wife does it all the time).  That's not what our hobby, and particularly D-Star, is all about.  Nevertheless, welcome to the forum, and welcome to the FUN!

I actually met Satoshi at Dayton as he was at our Friday night event, in our booth the next day with a D-Star adapter, and was also there when we linked with Japan for the first time. He was a pleasure to meet and we felt most honored having him there.

It took me a while to wrap my head around the technical aspects of how exactly the project was doing what it was doing (and as a result, several different drafts of this reply).  Basically, you're taking Robin's D-Plus software and hooking a D-Star radio up to it instead of a dongle by way of an analog radio transciever and GMSK modem?  I think that's what it was anyway.

On the note of breadboarding and rolling his own...I believe the Gentleman kindly passed, and it may be a while before that board is available.  Not everyone has the capability to burn their own PIC microcontroller on their bench, either (looks like one is necessary, two by option of self contained repeater).  So, he would have to use the GMSK software solution.  Interesting project, though.  Where's the Bill Of Materials, schematics and firmware?  I could see lots of other uses for that besides GMSK and D-Star if the circuit were tweaked a bit.

Have you by chance measured the transmitter spectrum coming out of your analog radio to see if there is any "FM filter trash" in the signal outside of the D-Star modulation?  A lot of us are eager to put our minds at ease.  I think someone published an article from the Dallas area specifically on the UT adapter and had good results, but I can't seem to find it.

[KB9KHM]

Uh.... Could it have been that the node adapter project was somewhat unknown when that comment was made?? 

The node adapter has been discussed on Yahoo forums since March 2008, and was definitely on Satoshi's site last September when your post was made.  D-Star Hot Spot has been publicly available since March '08.

I actually met Satoshi at Dayton as he was at our Friday night event, in our booth the next day with a D-Star adapter, and was also there when we linked with Japan for the first time. He was a pleasure to meet and we felt most honored having him there.

I sat right behind him at the D-Star forum, but didn't realize who he was.  I've been kicking myself every since for not having said HI.

Basically, you're taking Robin's D-Plus software and hooking a D-Star radio up to it instead of a dongle by way of an analog radio transciever and GMSK modem?  I think that's what it was anyway.

That's pretty close.  Hot Spot does connect to D-Plus at the gateway/reflector.  So, Hot Spot supports D-Plus linking (like the Dongle), but obviously not callsign or slash routing.

On the note of breadboarding and rolling his own...I believe the Gentleman kindly passed, and it may be a while before that board is available.  Not everyone has the capability to burn their own PIC microcontroller on their bench, either (looks like one is necessary, two by option of self contained repeater).  So, he would have to use the GMSK software solution.  Interesting project, though.  Where's the Bill Of Materials, schematics and firmware?  I could see lots of other uses for that besides GMSK and D-Star if the circuit were tweaked a bit.

A pre-burned PIC is available from Satoshi at about the same price as an unburned PIC from Mouser/Digikey.  You'd only need your own burner if you wanted to upgrade firmware later.  Satoshi also has a simple schematic on his website to build your own PIC burner.   The parts list, schematic and firmware for the node adapter are all available from Satoshi.   Typically after purchasing a PCB, you get a username/password to a protected site with that information.  There's also a parts list with Mouser cross reference info on the gmsk_dv_node Yahoo group.

Have you by chance measured the transmitter spectrum coming out of your analog radio to see if there is any "FM filter trash" in the signal outside of the D-Star modulation?  A lot of us are eager to put our minds at ease.  I think someone published an article from the Dallas area specifically on the UT adapter and had good results, but I can't seem to find it.

No, I've not had the chance to do this. And I'm not aware of anyone else who has either.

Fred van Kempen also has a project in the works that will provide similar functionality to Satoshi's node adapter project.  My understanding is that what Fred will be producing will be available in either kit or completely assembled form (with a case and everything :-).  I think he's currently just waiting on a shipment of AMBE chips from DVSI.

[KC9MUK]

Wow.  It's been a long time since I checked this forum. My call sign has changed and everything. At any rate, I read the post about the node adapter, and it runs about $135, so that would mean that I would have around $350 tied up in it and the Dstar chip for my HT, not including the node radio itself. Finances have improved lately, so this is something I may do in the near future. Thanks to KB9KHM for the information.